tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7217199.post113246154187078117..comments2024-03-24T11:30:08.199-07:00Comments on Can you believe?: Saturday PS: Nancy's questionsJohan Maurerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13771067774042071617noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7217199.post-41465370977540977952010-07-19T05:21:47.457-07:002010-07-19T05:21:47.457-07:00Dear Johan, an excellent post!I particularly liked...Dear Johan, an excellent post!I particularly liked: "That core message is immediate corporate faithfulness to our divine Leader". And agree totally with your diagnosis about how we get distracted from this.<br /><br />I occasionally speak about 'Quakers and simplicity' for Quaker Quest, and on one occasion the Q & A at the end took a 'Levitican' turn - by which I mean one audience member kept saying 'can I do x and be a Quaker'. So I reiterated my starting point, that simplicity is all about removing things which stand between us and God.<br /><br />I think a lot of our corporate processes can throw obstacles in our path to God's will, too.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7217199.post-1134023498890118112005-12-07T22:31:00.000-08:002005-12-07T22:31:00.000-08:00Exactly, Johan, exactly. Thanks for the link. I ha...Exactly, Johan, exactly. Thanks for the link. I hadn't ever heard of Pontius Puddle before!Chris M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05125825966802002625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7217199.post-1133928147384674632005-12-06T20:02:00.000-08:002005-12-06T20:02:00.000-08:00You wrote (were led to write) something that one o...You wrote (were led to write) something that <A HREF="http://www.pontius.com/classic1.gif" REL="nofollow">one of my favorite</A> Pontius' Puddle cartoons seems to say in a different way. What keeps us from participating in fulfilling God's promises is us, not God.<BR/><BR/>Nancy's question, "What are we so afraid of?", takes on added meaning in light of the hostages' situation in Baghdad.<BR/><BR/>I hope you post your words elsewhere, as well—they are similarly fertile seeds for contemplation and action.Johan Maurerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13771067774042071617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7217199.post-1133847125601142002005-12-05T21:32:00.000-08:002005-12-05T21:32:00.000-08:00Yes, it's terrifying to realize God is really wait...Yes, it's <B>terrifying</B> to realize God is really waiting for us to respond. <BR/><BR/>The quote from R.W. Tucker reminds me of <A HREF="http://theearthquaker.blogspot.com/2005/11/what-was-jim-corbett-talking-about.html" REL="nofollow">Carl Magruder's post</A> about a nonviolent protest at Livermore Labs, and how he was treated quite differently from the folks with lighter skin.<BR/><BR/>Then, Johan, you comment, "Why should we be allowed to make decisions about the meeting's money, if the meeting has no power over our individual financial decisions?" Wow, you rock!! That is one audacious and important question. As a nonprofit fundraising and advocating type, the topic of (liberal, unprogramed) Quakers and money has long bugged me.<BR/><BR/>Anyhow, a few months ago I wrote this in a letter and sent it to about ten Friends from our meeting, after having received ministry during meeting for worship that did not rise to the level of needing to be spoken, but it did need to be written. I hope you don't mind if I share it here. Here's what I'm afraid of!<BR/><BR/> <I>The gates of the Kingdom of God<BR/> Are wide open, <BR/> God waiting to welcome us,<BR/> To hold us and to love us.<BR/><BR/> It’s not a matter of what we believe.<BR/> It’s a matter of how we behave.<BR/> Treating one another as subject and not as object.<BR/><BR/> Jesus taught that the Way is narrow,<BR/> Yet the constriction is put in place by us,<BR/> By the choices we make,<BR/> Not by God.<BR/> <BR/> It’s terrifying, but if we want, <BR/> We can go in that door right now.</I>Chris M.https://www.blogger.com/profile/05125825966802002625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7217199.post-1133023625902988192005-11-26T08:47:00.000-08:002005-11-26T08:47:00.000-08:00Another step would be to fund that CPT involvement...<I>Another step would be to fund that CPT involvement through self-taxation; even better, through funds withheld from Internal Revenue.</I><BR/><BR/>I've had that same thought. Aside from the financial support, I think that would be a powerful form of witness.Zach Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03081152597455627366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7217199.post-1132928730494448722005-11-25T06:25:00.000-08:002005-11-25T06:25:00.000-08:00So this is where everyone's been the last few days...So this is where everyone's been the last few days?! I echo Robin's remarks. I will have to reread this a few times this weekend. Thanks Johan for putting some focus around some frustrations I don't think I've been able to name. This is such a thoughtful and insightful piece of writing. - RobRobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02121082135356221967noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7217199.post-1132728646750664832005-11-22T22:50:00.000-08:002005-11-22T22:50:00.000-08:00I continue to appreciate the comments, and hope th...I continue to appreciate the comments, and hope that for Nancy they translate into support—including prayer support—for this coming Sunday.<BR/><BR/>As I've written before, we have a friend in Baghdad, serving with CPT, and her last letter mentions a mortar shell landing on her building's roof. I was one of those who worked hard to bring Friends United Meeting into CPT, and now I would like to see every Friends meeting or church involved in one way or another in CPT.<BR/><BR/>Another step would be to fund that CPT involvement through self-taxation; even better, through funds withheld from Internal Revenue. FUM has a Peace Tax Fund that can collect and hold the money; earnings go to such concerns as development and peace education. The Fellowship of Reconciliation and other organizations have similar escrow accounts. One of the important events in the life of our former meeting in Indiana was its support for tax refusers in the meeting.<BR/><BR/>However, these sorts of steps should not be carried out by activist-specialists in the church, without connection to the other dimensions of church life. I would like to envision a whole new depth of collaboration among the devotionally-oriented people in the meeting (those who are gifted in prayer and the inward journey) and the prophets and social activists. Too often they get on each other's nerves, in my experience, but as God is seen more and more as being in the center, I really believe that can change.<BR/><BR/>If those who hold prayer vigils at military bases, those who counsel potential conscientious objectors, those who pray and lead Bible studies, those who evangelize and start house-meeting fellowships, those who operate church Web sites, and those who oversee the meeting's finances ... all are honored and integrated in a larger vision, wonderful things can happen. <BR/><BR/>It can start with a midweek meeting for worship (as I experienced in Ottawa); it can include such modest steps as reviving the practice of recording ministers (and where they're already recorded but usually confined to pastors, expanding the recording to include non-pastoral public ministry), and releasing Friends for Gospel service and for travel in the ministry—but not pro forma; instead, as a way of overcoming our autonomy and acknowledging the intersection of individual and community.<BR/><BR/>The impulse to deepen the life can come from the devotional or stewardship dimension of the meeting, not just the activist side. If Friends decide to explore the true source of vocal ministry, and experiment with letting go of inhibitions about singing or praying or even coming to tears during worship, deeper places can be reached that may result in a vision for the larger world. Another entry into closer community could be a willingness to talk about money and its power in our lives. Why should we be allowed to make decisions about the meeting's money, if the meeting has no power over our individual financial decisions?<BR/><BR/>JohanJohan Maurerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13771067774042071617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7217199.post-1132721813980790392005-11-22T20:56:00.000-08:002005-11-22T20:56:00.000-08:00No comments. Just awe and rereading and rereading ...No comments. Just awe and rereading and rereading and rereading.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7217199.post-1132709888759085432005-11-22T17:38:00.000-08:002005-11-22T17:38:00.000-08:00If we are going to ask the world to accept pacifis...<I>If we are going to ask the world to accept pacifism as more than an occasional tactic, then we had better find a form of pacifism that is not tied to middle-class values.</I><BR/><BR/>YES. It's not enough to just have vigils, vote, give money, and (if one happens to 18-25 and male) be a conscientious objector. <BR/><BR/>I like what Ron Sider said (in the address that led to the formation of <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Peacemaker_Teams" REL="nofollow">CPT</A>):<BR/><BR/><I>Unless we Mennonites and Brethren in Christ [or Quakers] are ready to start to die by the thousands in dramatic vigorous new exploits for peace and justice, we should sadly confess that we really never meant what we said... Unless comfortable North American and European [Quakers] are prepared to risk injury and death in nonviolent opposition to the injustice our societies foster and assist in Central America, the Philippines, and South Africa, we dare never whisper another word about pacifism to our sisters and brothers in those desperate lands... Unless we are prepared to pay the cost of peacemaking, we have no right to claim the label or preach the message.</I><BR/><BR/>I go back and forth over that sort of thing and war tax resistance... But they definitely do have the virtue of making it harder for our alleged testimony to peace to be a comfortable middle-class accessory.<BR/><BR/>You also say, <I>If we Friends can reunite around God's promises as fulfilled in Christ, we will have a revolutionary impact in this violent and death-worshipping world.</I><BR/><BR/>I want to agree, but I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you mean reunite around the belief that promises God has made have been in some sense fulfilled by Christ, I'm a little skeptical, because I don't think beliefs like that in themselves will change things very deeply. I think we should consider whether God's promises actually are fulfilled in us in the first place. Like:<BR/><BR/><I>He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit. </I>(Titus 3.5)<BR/><BR/>Can we presumptuously assume, as is the universal habit among people who identify as Christians, that we are included in the "us" of this sort of verse? Have we really experienced a deep renewing, a washing of regeneration? I think early Friends only claimed (and could unite around the fact) that God's promises had been fulfilled because <I>that actually had been their experience</I>, and I question how true that is of us today.Zach Alexanderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03081152597455627366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7217199.post-1132708363900293342005-11-22T17:12:00.000-08:002005-11-22T17:12:00.000-08:00Thanks for the powerful words, Johan. I have recei...Thanks for the powerful words, Johan. I have received much food for thought from the responses to my posting. <BR/><BR/>I feel the call for our meeting to move (and grow) so strongly that it wakes me up at night. I dread the decisions I will have to make if the meeting decides not to act on this leading. <BR/><BR/>But if we do decide to act, then I will know that a profound change has taken place among us, turning usaway from a spiritual concern for self to a spiritual concern for others and for the Light. Even if we turn just a smidge more, by living up to the Light that we have, then in time more will be granted to us. What a wonderful thing that would be, and I earnestly hope for it.<BR/><BR/>Please hold our meeting in the Light this Sunday if you can.Nancy Ahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14260235828442346455noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7217199.post-1132681279355065512005-11-22T09:41:00.000-08:002005-11-22T09:41:00.000-08:00Beppe's right, how are we supposed to just continu...Beppe's right, how are we supposed to just continue with our day now? I have a lot of work to do to get a <A HREF="http://www.fgcquaker.org/gathering/" REL="nofollow">bunch of middle class folks to Tacoma to celebrate themselves</A>, how can I do that now? (I trust at least some of the ministry there will make it all worthwhile...). I had to give this four different categories for the (temporarily-down) <A HREF="http://www.nonviolence.org/quaker" REL="nofollow">blog watch</A> site. Both parts of this post--the critique of middle-class pacifism and of Quaker "passivism" to use Nancy's phrase--are wonderful reminders of what we are truly called to be in this world.<BR/>Blessings and thanks,<BR/>Martin Kelley<BR/><A HREF="http://www.nonviolence.org/martink" REL="nofollow">Quaker Ranter</A>Martin Kelleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06999620933648327663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7217199.post-1132623993144597332005-11-21T17:46:00.000-08:002005-11-21T17:46:00.000-08:00Thanks, you two! It's amazing how, in this medium,...Thanks, you two! It's amazing how, in this medium, we can serve as each other's sparks. There's plenty more to do to respond adequately to Nancy's questions.<BR/><BR/>JohanJohan Maurerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13771067774042071617noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7217199.post-1132518366517023792005-11-20T12:26:00.000-08:002005-11-20T12:26:00.000-08:00johan, this is such a beautiful and impassioned pi...johan, this is such a beautiful and impassioned piece of writing. it's really interesting to me how the movie we saw links up to all your other life-bits. and dang!!! you sure do rock with the e-pen.<BR/>sAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com